Consumer Reports: "Disappointing ION"...

The block was light. The head? Heh. Heavy. I don't get GM at times.
Harley had aluminum heads in the 30's, GM had iron heads in the 70's...

The cooling system I can vouch for - the thing would overheat in traffic
on a 980 degree day. And it wouldn't shut off for a feqw secs most of
the time either. Wow, it ran hot.

IIRC, the ads in the mid 70's for it actually boasted how the car was
more likely to start in the rain, due to the HEI system. It's amazing
how far we've come!

There was AC available? Gah. IIRC, the car had maybe 100hp on a good
day, and they weren't light cars either.

And you couldn't put a tranny cooler on them! Stupid GM had that stupid
350 with the holes in it and no cooler passages. Thank god my dad's had
a 350 in it, it was far overengineered for that car's motor. Only gave
up once, after 150,000...

Oh, once the car got tolling, it ran. It was starting it and shutting
it off that it never really got down right...

 

Their 6's aren't horrid, but IMHO, none of the Japanese makers have
gotten V motors down as well as Detroit. 4's? Yeah, they're a bit
better. IMHO, for a 4, it's Japan, inline 6, it's europe, V 6 or 8?
Detroit. They've been squirting them out forever.

Honda's automatics don't excite me. They're also non planetary, which
is lame. If you've ever seen how GM's 4L60 gets 3 speeds + overdrive
from 2 simple planetaries, it's quite something...

 

I own a '99 Si, the quickest stock Civic to date (according to half a dozen
magazines anyway - i.e. 0 to 60: 7.2 1/4m: 15.7). I can't verify those times
and I'm sure that I could not match them personally, but I can tell you that
I do get 27-28 mpg CITY / 29-30 mpg HWY. Assuming you have a lessor model
Civic, you should be getting better mileage than me. Something seems wrong.
Is your car properly maintained? Has it been molested...I mean, modified?
IMO, Honda engineers do a good job with all aspects of the car, but once you
start changing it, you screw it up (not you personally).

Compared to what? I'll look up the interior specs. I'm 5'-8" 250 lbs. and
fit quite comfortable in my Civic, even in the back seat - compared to some
other small coupes I looked at. The newer Civics are even larger.

Hmm. I never checked.

Eh, ok.
--


Mark
'99 Civic Si

 

I was actually kidding about the Honda V6 being garbage - just seeing if
anyone was paying attention, seeing how Saturn is using this same engine /
tranny in the '04+ V6 Vue. But the rest of my post was more-or-less serious.
;-) I don't really know if the Honda 5-speed auto-tranny is crap, but my
brother did get a recall on his '02 Odyssey.

And I agree 100% with your take on engines by countries, and to add to
that - domestic trucks rule and always have!

Domestic V6s and trannys have always been smooth to me and I rent allot of
cars, from the 3.4L Alero (had one for 2 weeks just 3 weeks ago) to the
Impala and Grand Prix GT. The 3800 is always a pleasure, as well as any
other V6 that might be under those hoods. Trannys are always silky smooth.

I jumped in this thread because I thought Honda was being a little overly
criticized with some of the comments. No acceleration and made for
midgets??? Power and size are just fine for what it is IMO, and too many
people have forgotten what the Civic is. It's the current inconsistent build
quality that has me dissing it. Ok, a little more power might be good as
long as mileage isn't sacrificed. My problem with the Civic is the same
problem I have with some current Saturns. TOO MUCH FREGGIN' WEIGHT! My
favorite Hondas and Saturns are the late '80s CRX Si's and 1st gen SC/SC2s.
Hondas and Saturns use to be light and tossable but I guess those days are
lone gone <sigh>.

 

It would overheat on a 980 degree day? What a piece of crap!

 

Isn't it the truth. I won't even set foot on the nearest
Honda dealer's lot (Leith in Raleigh, NC). I have tried to
buy cars from them in the past and they awere just plain
a**h*les. When my Sister wanted a Civic, we visited them and
tried to negotiate a decent price. They were ridiculously
high and arrogant as hell. "You won't get a better price
anywhere else" was the final words from the salesamn . One
call to an out of town dealer got us a good price. As a
result the local dealer get zero business from me or my
Sister - not even warranty work. I actually like Hondas but
would never consider the local dealer <period>.

Ed

 

The Chevy Vega (which I believe was first introduced in the 1970 or 1971

I agree totally. I once learned from Pontiac that it was originally started
off as the new generation of Camaro (like it's Pontiac Cousin Astre was to
be the new Firebird) and that's when they started experimenting with the
aluminum block. (Actually, Chevy did make some 1969 Camaros with
aluminum...ZR1 - was that the name? I understand some of the suspension was
aluminum too...) But I recall the V8 Vega models - being smaller and having
such a motor - was something pretty competitive in it's time - until
cylinders got scored...

It's a shame that GM just did not test their cars and refine them (once upon
a time) each step along the way. Saturn seems to listen at times.

I recently read in the Kansas City Star that GM pulled a Toyota executive
out of retirement to work with them, and one of the comments he made [to
GM - paraphrased] was: "You only test up to the warranty limits you offer.
You must test to the limits of the failure of the vehicle..."

 

We tried the Costco (like Sam's Club) buying service for a 04 Element EX,
yet when going to the first dealer that made an offer, a regular,
non-internet sales guy tried to get the sale. Another dealer was 100%
better, but still no Saturn dealer - my gripe with them (dealer the car was
bought from) is that they install an aftermarket alarm in every car
regardless whether you buy the alarm or not (when you buy it they activate
it). I asked a few questions about 'how' it's installed and the sales guy
said Honda would only allow a unit that utilized the factory plugs on the
harness - no cutting, no splicing. Yet when Lojack was added later, they
used taps, placed the control unit in an obvious location with 2-sided tape
and bundled up the antenna and taped it up (it fell down on the floor a
month later). Sloppy, lazy work that was probably subbed out - shame on the
dealer.

My neighbor just bought a new CRV - not as pretty as a VUE but still neat
(to me).

 

If GM could match long-term reliability with their stellar advertising and
marketing they'd blast everyone else out of the competition. I love the
commercial where the lady Engineer parks a 40' SUV with 4-wheel steering
next to some biker's - I grin every time I see it. There's too many of us
older farts that have GM horror stories that we are not letting go and are
not seeing the probs imports have today with an unbiased eye. IMO, most car
makers are just making product and it's dumb luck when something great makes
it to the real world...

 

My dad needed a hitch on his Odessy, naturally, the dealer wanted some
inane amount ($400 or so) to install it, so we had them throw on the
coolers up front, and got our own hitch and stuck it on.

Oh yeah, but the lighting hookup? There's a jack in the back wiring
harness that you plug your light harness into. It's in the manual. The
manual also states you can get the matching plug at the dealer.
Naturally, the dealer acted as if they've never heard of this, and the
resulting run around was like a Pentagon press briefing. They hadn't
heard of this plug. We showed it to them in the manual. "Oh, that
really doesn't exist". Well, shit, we saw the freaking jack with our
own eyes.

A few other dealers acted the same way. To get the stupid .05 cent POS
plug, we'd either have to buy some 'towing adaptor' for 200 bucks (!),
or a whole towing kit, a bargain at $500. We called honda. They denied
the existance of this plug. "You can't just buy that plug".

We gave up, bought our own plugset, and cut the OEM one off.

BTW, re Honda quality - They're not stupid. They know they've got a
reputation, so it's cutback time. Look at any recent Sony electronics
Vs the 70's and 80's and you'll see the same thing.

 

The Ecotec will surpass honda's 4 banger I'm sure.

Actually the 3.5L is garbage. You cant touch the fuel injectors and you
cant remove the spark plugs without removing the intake from what I
recall. I dont like 60 deg motors.

For sure. We use trucks daily so we know how to design them, they...
What do they need trucks for?

The 3.1's 3.4's are 60 deg motors but are very smooth. The 3800 is
probably by far the best 6 cylinder on the market.

To...much...weight??? The Ions weigh 2700Lbs and the L300's weigh
3000lbs! If they were any lighter they wouldnt stick to the road! Light
cars are considered bad by anyone in the car crash testing field anyhow.

 

Hondas are just plain fugly nowadays anyway.

The '88-'91 Civics, especially the sedans/wagons, were very nicely styled.
The '84-'87 were nice also.

 

Gimme the money and I will! I aint gonna be popping no wheelies on a
chopper! A new stock engine at $2500 bucks is just fine for me. Cruising
is all I'm interested in.

 

Heh. Go ride an S&S motor >

Seriously, the extra $$$ even an S&S 89 or so costs is worth it for a
nicer motor.

And hey - what fun is a chopper with a pussy motor in it? My friend
with an 80" stock Fat Boy says it truely sucks not being able to keep
up. And it SUCKS waiting every 5th light for him :/

(Hey, not my fault the throttle's so much fun to twist open all the
way...)

 

Maybe. I try not to think of 4 bangers in general. I've always hated 4
banger cars.

Oh yes. That thing.

IIRC, Honda had a concept 'pikup' that a) couldn't fit a 4X8 sheet of
plywood in the back, and b) was not body on frame.

The Lincoln Blackwood flunked (a) too, but look how fast it died. Ok,
granted I laugh when I see the chevy ads dumping RR ties into the bed
from 10 feet up (that'd be a hole, Bob), but still, the big Three do
pickups better than anyone else because, well, we USE them. At least
some people still do, anyway...

The 3800 is a great motor. I hear it gets freaky high mileage, too.
Even the 2.8 in my old ('87) Chevy wagon was good - it ran ran ran, and
never blew up in 225,000 miles. Actually, I think it's STILL running
out at a local airport as a tow car...

Oh sure they would.

No, just by the general public and the feds. There are plenty of
small/light cars that do well enough in crashes, but people can't get
over the 'smashed car' thing, and can't understand how and why crumple
zones work. NHTSA has been beating the 'big car' drum because it's
politically convinient, as opposed to pointing out that most 'drivers'
out there can't drive for shit.

 

With the rate their going trying to squeeze the power out of them their
starting to get the same mpg as a 6 cyl but still fall short on torque
and will never sound like a v6. I only look for 4 bangers for economy,
not speed, sound, or hp. Still I say the ecotec beats out honda's 4
bangers.

I think they or toyota was going to make a fwd truck. Yeah... Um put
something in the back and watch how far you get on wet level grass...

Yes the 3800 gets good gas mileage. Upwards of about 30mpg on a highway
doing about 70mph or so with cruise set. The tranny on the 2.8 I had was
a pos. Mileage gage stopped working around 61k then the tranny gave out
sometime later. Engine still starts with a bump of the starter though.

Crumple zones work by slowing down the rate of deceleration. Instead of
the energy being focused on you its channeled into the car. Do you want
to hit a brick wall with just your tshirt on at 50mph or do you want
some sheet metal to "compress/crumple" infront of you bringing the speed
of the blow down? Either the car must "give" or your chest will. Not
hard to understand.

Maybe he doesnt want to get his ass ran over by someone running a red
light

If I was interested in speed I would buy a freak'n crotch rocket. I'm
not going out there on 2 wheels to get my body busted up in a high speed
wreck. Hell if triumphs werent getting so stupid in their prices I would
buy a t120 bonneville and chop it. Btw does your friend have a
acceleration pump on his carb?

 

3 speed or 4? The THM125C actually wasn't bad, but the TC clutch setup
was notorious for not unlocking when it should have. The 'fix' was
unplugging it.

More like his bike can't move his ass for shit. It's a pain on the
highway, too.

Yeah, but his motor sucks anyway :/

 

What ever a 1988 regal had. Cant remember what it had but if you look
them up on ebay theres a lot of them that say the odometer stopped at 60
some thousand.

Some port work might make his engine breath better. Not to hard to do
on a harley so long as you have had experience porting heads. Some of
the stock harley manifolds really sucked. Usually rough intake runners
give you good low end torque but poor upper end hp. In the right hands
any HD motor will do just as good if not better than a S&S. Just depends
on who's going through it. Me? I could probably make a HD engine run
really good but stock is all I want at this point in my life...

 

Yeah, I really liked those too. I did buy a new Civic LX in '92 but never
completely warmed up to the 'new' styling.

In '89, I bought a new CRX Si (technically a Civic) and it had a fantastic
wrap-around 'cockpit' and included some of the best seats (although cloth)
I've ever sat in. The late '80s were Honda's best styled cars, IMO. The
CRX's exterior was a little funky (i.e. glass back end), but the interior
was just fantastic. Even Accords (especially the LXi 'fast back' with pop-up
headlights) were sharp.

I remember in '90-''91, allot of my co-workers had purchased new Hondas
(mostly Accords, Preludes, and Integras) and the garage would be almost half
full of sharp looking (IMO) Hondas and Acuras side-by-side. We didn't even
know what "rice" was (apparently this disease hadn't reached Atlanta yet)
and our cars were all completely stock (appearance and performance). We kept
them up and enjoyed them for what they were.

How times have changed. Oh well.

Fit-and-finish aside, this is one of my favorite styled automobiles...
http://www.carsearch.nl/photo.htm
http://www.carsearch.nl/PONTIAC-FIERO-GT.htm

And for the grand prize winner which will never be matched (foreign or
domestic)...
http://www.quickercars.com/images/R0010941.jpg

 

I had a 71 Vega. I bought oil by the gallon ... seriously. It also rusted out
like the older honda's. I was just getting out of college ... I had to wear
one set of cloths on the way to the interviews and change when I got there ...
I was either sweating to death ... or if it rained ... it leaked in on me.