Do Saturns Actually WORK?

Ignoring his agents wishes, (Detector195) flung
open the hotel room door and announced to the gathering crowd:

I beg to differ about Saturns being straight forward to work on. Our
thermostat on our 00 LS2 went out and it cost us over $500 to replace
it. That's because, some engineer in their infinite wisdom, placed
the thermostat under the intake manifold. The manifold and all the
associated hardware has to be removed and then all the gaskets have
to be replaced just to remove the proprietary ($20) gen-u-wine Saturn
thermostat. It's almost a 4 hour labor intensive job to replace. And
to add insult to injury, the new replacement thermostats require a
different housing, which *also* has to be purchased since they no
longer stock the older style thermostats. Our local Saturn dealer
wanted $700 to repair the thermostat, part of that is because they
charge nearly a hundred dollars an hour for labor. We went to an
independent to get it done to save some money. At least around here,
unless you *have* to have the dealer service your car, it's MUCH
cheaper to get it done elsewhere.

We *also* found out that the oil seals on the oil cooler are leaking.
Another $400 repair. Oh, did I mention that now the power steering
pump is leaking? Yup, another $450 to replace. This just after two
months ago when we had to replace the Mass Airflow Sensor which
set us back another $400. Oh, and not to mention the rotors that
have gone out every 30K miles to the tune of $350.

All this after 65k miles with *all* scheduled maintenance done by the
dealer always on time. And the car still looks new!

Then there's the leaky door seals that's been replaced twice and still
sounds like the windows are rolled down.

It's a great looking car, but we've given up on it. We're going to
trade it in and buy something just a tad more reliable. Like a Lexus
or a Toyota or a Honda.

Incidently, the cost of the LS2's (now the L300's), compare right
along with an Accord and the resale value and reliability is no where
near that of an Accord.

It's our second Saturn and we thought the first one, (a new SL2) was
an isolated lemon, and ended up trading it in for the (then) new LS2
but now we're wondering if, like so many other GM vehicles, once they
reach the 60k, mark it's time to seriously consider trading it in. I
think we waited about 5k too long to do just that unfortunately.




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Quoth in

Just last year I finally disposed of a 1989 Chevy Celebrity wagon with 125K
on it, and replaced it with an incredibly clean 1995 Buick Century wagon
(basically the Buick version of the same vehicle) with just barely 61K on it.
The Chevy (which I had bought with 65K on it) had been really reliable, and
the transmission, though a bit leaky in its old age, had been solid as a
rock, so I figured that I'd get at least 60K out of the Buick without major
expenses.

At 69K, I've already had to replace the Buick's automatic transmission
(unexpected), EGR valve (unexpected), catalytic converter (unexpected),
alternator (I expected this), a major oil seal (I also expected this, but I
expected it at about 85K, as it had occurred on the Chevy) and one injector
(I'm now expecting to have to replace them all this winter, as I'm
discovering that 3.0 V6s of this vintage seem to have a real injector
problem) and I have an SES light thing happening on and off that I plan to
have diagnosed at the next oil change; heaven knows what new surprise is in
store for me then, as I know it's burning a small amount of oil.

In other words, at least insofar as it relates to mid-90's models and later,
my GM experience agrees wih yours -- as much as we like driving our 2000 LS1
(that light-weight 4-banger rocks!), when it gets near 60K, we plan to get
rid of it, and we'll probably replace it with a Honda.

 

<snip>

Always buy the Saturn extended warranty on a Saturn (not after-market).
Saturns are not designed for the home mechanic, just look at the oil filter
location on the S series. Factor this cost into the total price, since with
much of the competition the extended warranty is a bad gamble.

Slow learner, huh?

Lease Saturns. Normally leases are bad deals, but for Saturn
a three year subsidized lease is a better deal then buying, given
the low resale value and the relatively poor long term dependability.

http://www.jdpa.com/studies_jdpower/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=749&CatID=1

Saturn fluctuates between just above average and just below average,
year after year.

If you're looking for a vehicle that you can drive for 5-10 years then
you'll be better off with something else.

 

...and that's directly in line with several independent mechanics I
know said. They told me that it would be in my best interest to get
rid of the Saturn *now* at 65k than wait any longer because the
problems I'm experiencing will only increase. And, unfortunately,
even minor problems on an L series Saturn can be very expensive to
repair. Couple that with a $25k car that, three years later, isn't
worth $8k, any more miles we rack up will only lower the value even
more.






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<snip>

Always buy the Saturn extended warranty on a Saturn (not after-market).
Saturns are not designed for the home mechanic, just look at the oil filter
location on the S series. Factor this cost into the total price, since with
much of the competition the extended warranty is a bad gamble.

Slow learner, huh?[/QUOTE]

wifes car. I didn't want to go the route of another Saturn but she
was thrilled with the customer service and the plastic panels. Yes,
we were *very* slow learners. Good thing the door panels are dent
resistant, it's painless to bang my head against it. ;-)

sage advice. albeit a little late *sigh*. Oh well.

we have an appointment with a Lexus dealer this afternoon. They have
a certified pre-owned, 2000 ES300 on the lot with 20k miles for $23k.

I've known several people who have owned a Lexus and they all have
said you can drive those puppies into the ground without worrying
about it constantly breaking down. However, I also realize that when
it *does* require any repairs, it will be pricey. Considering we've
put almost $2k in repairs in the past year and a half in our Saturn
already, it's pretty much a wash but we'll have a MUCH nicer (and
quieter) car for our money. It's also nice to know that with the
certified pre-owned program, it's covered up to 100k miles *and* they
pick up/drop off the car at your home or place of work and leave an 04
Lexus to drive as a loaner. Even Saturn doesn't do that.




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Ask any honest independent mechanic about Saturns, you'll touch a
nerve. The parts aren't terrible expensive, but the design flaws lead
to a lot of expense (at least on the S series). It's too early to tell on
the Ion, but it looks like the L series is problematic as well.

 

Well it looks like the Saturn era is coming to a close. I wouldn't be
surprised if GM shut down Saturn and merges it into Chevrolet or
Pontiac. The Ion and the L series are doing poorly, only the Vue is
doing relatively well. Cavalier and Impala are doing quite well. They
can keep the brand name for a while, just as they did with Geo, then
eventually drop it. The Saturn dealer nearest to me has already closed
(Sunnyvale). GM just "delayed" the Saturn hybrid SUV for a year.

 

well, as I had mentioned earlier today. We went out and traded it in
for a 2000 Lexus ES300.

The difference is so remarkable, you'd think they were made on
different planets.

It's the difference between riding a limo and an open topped jeep.

The Lexus is quiet, more powerful, larger and overall a significantly
better engineered car. As for the service, they make the Saturn
dealer pale in comparison. Granted the Lexus (new) cost over $32k
but jeez, the Saturn was only about $7k cheaper when it was new.

One odd thing though. When we traded in the car, the dealer pointed
out that the car had the rear passenger quarterpanel and fender
repainted. He pointed out the line inside the rear door where it was
obvious that it had been masked off.

This *really* pisses me off because we purchased the car new from the
dealer and we were never told that there had been any body work to the
car. That little "post-factory" paint job cost us $1,500 in trade in
value.

Needless to say, we're going to have a little talk with the Saturn
dealer, for what little good that will do us.




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Congrats!

I've heard nothing but good things about Lexus - a few of my coworkers have
them. I'm just not a $800/month car payment kinda guy - of course I still
buy CA lotto tickets, who knows! (smile)

 

Hey, I still own my Geo Tracker from 1993. It had the clutch replaced
at 90k, and basic maintnance that is it. The thing never dies and is
really good on gas. It just sits now for the most part, but has
130,000 miles on it.

Cant complain. I would NEVER buy a new tracker, especially made
between 99-02, GM and Chevy really had some bad years with all their
cars. Hopefully they can turn it around.

 

thanks! Buy a pre-owned, certified Lexus. They're *much* cheaper.
On the high end cars, it's better to let someone else take the big hit
up front when they're new. Buy them when they come off lease, (like
we did), and you'll save a ton of money.

We bought a 2000 ES300, loaded, in red with an ivory interior, with
20K miles in absolutely like new condition for $23k. And that
includes a 5 year 100,000 mile warranty, roadside assistance and
pickup from home/work of the car and a free 04 Lexus loaner. Monthly
payments, which includes GAP insurance is $480, about half what a new
one costs in monthly payments. Also, if the car is certified, you're
eligible for new car interest rates, which usually saves a percentage
point or two.






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It is not unusual for that to happen. For a while, my commute went
past an auto body repair shop. It was not unusual to see new cars
(all of the same brand, still in the shipping wrap) on flatbed tow
trucks parked outside that shop (there is a dealer of that brand
nearby). You can probably find that with any brand of car, if you
happen to observe the correct auto body repair shop.

 

I read through these posts and I'm amazed at how negative everyone is.

Our 2000 SL2 hasn't been perfect, but we really can't complain. It's
well equiped with everything we wanted (A/C, PW, PDL, Alarm,
AM/FM/Cass/CD changer, leather interior, remote entry, power mirrors,
5 speed, etc.) and only cost $17,500 Cdn ($12,500 US) + tax after the
GM Visa rebate ($3100).

After 194,000 hard kms it's still going like new, hardly burns any oil
(can do 5000km oil change without adding any), looks new (except the
recent crack in the windshield from a rock), starts and runs
flawlessly. I'm hoping to get 500,000+ kms out of it. So far it
truely isn't show any signs of aging.

We also tow our 2000 lbs camper with it - 41,000 kms of towing so far.
It does a great job and handled the Rocky mountains well (WOT all the
way up the mountains at 5000+ rpm, overtaking most travel trailers).

I also race it with my friends and have taken driving school with it
quite a few times. Here it spends 3+ hours straight running flat out,
threshold braking, flat out, etc. The little car holds it own well,
especially at Shannonville (road course track near Toronto)

We were so impressed with the durability we bought a 2000 SW2 for my
wife.

Both cars have had some annoying problems which these Saturns are
known for, but overall they are very cost effective. The problems
have been exhaust resonator cracked (updated design has lasted),
leaking positive termal on the both batteries after 3 years, outer tie
rods at 100,000-130,000 kms, right front wheel bearing at 193,000 kms,
and front brake pads at 130,000 kms (which is fine).

The 2000-2002 S-series were probably the best years, and our cars have
been very durable. I still consider them not the best looking, and
they aren't BMW's, but when you look at the total cost and performance
per mile I don't think there's much that can beat them.

Steve

 

There may have been defective paint from the factory that they
had to fix, not any real body damage such as dents. The polymer
panels are difficult to paint.

 

Always buy the Saturn extended warranty on a Saturn (not after-market).

And you would know how? Have you ever owned one and worked on it? I've done
about everything there is to do to my S series and its very home-mechanic
friendly. If you can't handle changing the oil filter on it, you shouldn't be
under the car to begin with.

 

Why wouldn't you just buy a new 2003 Camry instead? The Lexus is rated to have a
little more power but otherwise the chassis are almost identical. They didn't
even try to disguise the ES300 - it still looks just like the Camry. GM used to
play this silly game, but I thought most people had gotten tired of paying a lot
extra for a "name" - guess not.

Ed

 

This sort of thing happens all the time. Several years ago a good friend
bought a Toyota Celica. I am quite a bit taller than he is. When he brought
the new car over for a "look see," I immediately noticed that there was a
partially painted streak down the middle of the roof. Needless to say he
was pissed. The dealer had it touched-up and it looked fine. However, an
expert could still tell it had been touched up. I can't see where this
should have affected the resale value though. Same thing in your case. I
think the Lexus dealer just hosed you. I would suggest you should have a
long talk with the Lexus dealer instead of the Saturn dealer.

I recently purchased a Saturn and the Saturn dealer was finding all sorts
of excuses to lower the value of my trade-in. Fortunately I had my trade-in
appraised at the local CarMax. When I showed them the CarMax appraisal they
quit trying to hose me. The CarMax appraisal was lower than the NADA guide
showed, but it was better than what the Saturn dealer was offering
initially. We worked upward from there - instead of working up from the
dealers initial low ball price for my trade.

Ed

 

I don't know, and have heard that Lexus, even the Camry twin is much quieter
and luxurious that a vanilla Toyota. There might be a little prestige with
the Lexus nameplate too (and least in my thinking)...

 

Prestige is not important to me. At least a few years ago I remember
reading an article that claimed that the Camry and ES300 had exactly the
same sound deadening materials. The interior styling is different and
the seats in the Lexus look fancier, but all the stuff that really
matters is the same. Some people prefer Japanese built Toyotas over US
built ones, but I don't see this difference reflected in any quality
surveys.

Ed

 

we took an 04 Camry for a test drive. The *only* similarity was the
body style. The engine was more powerful, it was a lot quieter and
the interior was much more luxurious.




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People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's
safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.
-Unknown


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