more Saturn complaints (casting flaws cause cracked heads)

I do not completely disagree with the replies DLR or SMS, but feel that
timing chain replacement is not necessary as preventative maintenance on an
engine that receives regular changes of good quality oil. I agree that
excessively extended oil change intervals can lead to tensioner seizure and
loose chains that can wear on the chain case and that inadequate lubrication
can accelerate chain wear. IMHO the likelihood of catastrophic failure of
the chain is relatively slight on an engine that has received regular oil
changes. IMHO a loose chain caused by wear or tensioner failure will be
audible long before failure but does require careful listening as part of
operational maintenance. I would change the chain any time the head needs
to be removed.

Just my .02 YMMV

 

Yes, it's true that an owner that pays attention to the noise that a loose
chain makes could just wait for the noise prior to changing it, rather than
replace it at a periodic interval.

I'm not sure what "good quality oil" is. All oil except some Amsoil products
are API certified. However "regular" _is_ very important as the chain
tensioner operation depends on the tensioner bore not becoming contaminated
with varnish.

 

Timing chain replacement is often neglected because there is no fixed
service interval for replacement. It's a wear item, and a lot of owners
have gotten in trouble by neglecting the chain (and related tensioning
components), often because the "life of the car" timing chain story was
presented to them at the time of purchase and they actually believed it.
Combine this with the personal anecdotes of 200K miles on a chain, and
it's a recipe for disaster (a large percentage of vehicle owners could
also get 200K miles from a belt, but is it worth the risk?).

If you ask a dealer's service department or independent mechanic whether
the chain needs replacement, the owner is likely to get an affirmative
answer because a) if they say no and the chain breaks or slips soon
after the owner inquires about it then the owner will claim that they're
liable, b) they want the money from the repair job, or c) the chain
really needs replacing.

Chains versus belts is one area where I'm not a retro-grouch. The reason
for going to belts is a) they're quieter, b) they're more suitable for
longer runs than are the norm on newer engines, c) it's easy and
inexpensive to replace them on a routine basis, d) they're more
reliable, and of course e) they're less costly for the manufacturer.

 

Distortion #1. Consumers seldom even know what their vehicle has. No one
can cite a dealer ever telling them that. Once again Scharf pulls
fantasies out of his ass.

More like the anecdotes of Scharfy boy.

And when they do they come on here and bitch about an upsale and then
you and trolls like you perpetuate this information as a "bad
experience"...

Yes thats why I've seen belts fail with 30k-60k miles on these "newer
engines". Clearly you never worked in a car shop.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Often cost the same if not more. You doubt me?
Simply research the NSX. The cost and effort of replacing a S-series
saturn timing chain is on par with the timing belt replacement of most 4
cylinder Hondas or Toyotas. I speak from 1st hand experience, do you?

And of course you're still wrong.

Yes thats what I want... Manufactures going the 'cheap' route.

 

quote...Marx404 is trying to sell Saturns...yada yada yada..

SMS, if that is all that you derive out of my being here you are sadly
mistaken. Yes, I do work for Saturn and am proud of that fact. After being a
member of SaturnFans and my family being Saturn owners for years, I decided
to go to work for them. Does that make me biased? I do not hide what I feel
and have frequently spoken candidly about issues that I have personally had
with my own cars and good and bad services at Saturn dealerships. I am an
owner first and foremost.

What I post is out of personal experience and especially as a Saturn owner
so please don't make assumptive comments. Nobody is glossing over anything.
I am here to learn and to contribute what I can, not add to the troll posts.

Want my insight to all this trollness and my view on Saturns? I am a car
guy, I love cars. There are some great cars out there and some not so great
cars. In comparison, with the few known issues such as the SOHC head flaw
and early 1st gen ecotec timing chain issues (issues that were few and far
in between and resolved by most reputable dealerships) this is a cheap but
not cheaply made car which is safe and reliable and had a an extensive fan
base of repeat owners. You can find good and bad if you look at any car and
trolls love to dwell on the negative, others post both positive and negative
but are looking to share and receive positive solutions.

If you and Mr. Fag still don't get the difference, here's an example. If I
post about a leaky sunroof for example, I am looking for others who have
found a solution to a similar problem. I don't go online and troll trying to
convince others it is a bad product. I am glad that you are able to
differentiate previous Tenn. made Saturns from the new Opel based ones, yet
it is disconcerting that past issues are still surfacing and being outspoken
and misrepresented today.

By the way, we have 3 SOHC S-series, one which has overheated twice (teen
boys) and have never had cracked heads. Have I seen cracked heads? you
betcha, it has happened. OTOH, I have seen 10 times as many very high
mileage s-series with little or no problems still on the road. - fin.

 

While I don't like what "Misterfact" does either, you're statement of "I
work for Saturn and not a word of this unreadable garbage is true" is
just as bad, simply because you are clearly lying, as other posters have
already pointed out.

In fact, the casting flaw that caused the cracked heads is well known,
and admitted by Saturn. Many owners were not compensated by GM because
the recall program (or whatever they called it) had unreasonable time
and mileage limits. Since the cracked head was caused by a manufacturing
flaw and not anything that the owners did to their vehicle, their should
not have been any limitation in terms of time or miles. If the flaw was
rare then it wouldn't have cost GM much to fix all vehicles affected.

It's always annoying when a manufacturer knows of a flaw in a product
that remain latent for beyond the warranty terms, so that only those
owners "lucky" enough to have the problem manifest itself during the
warranty are able to get it repaired at no cost.

 

IMHO, operation & driving style makes a huge differece in engine longevity.
Giving an engine a short idle (and low RPM operation for the first few
minutes until temperature normalizes) after startup allows oil to circulate
fully and helps to avoid scuffing and premature wear. Avoiding high RPM
(and 'spirited')operation will result in lower stresses and loadings on all
engine parts. IMHO, wear on all engine components is significantly higher
at 4,000 RPM than at 3,000 (and much much higher at 5,000). IMHO, S series
saturns make their best volumetric efficiency, and fuel ecconomy / HP
produced at 2,400 RPM and will give their best and longest service if they
are opperated as close to this speed as much as possible..

One would think that all API certified oils should have similar quality and
performance, but IMHE they just don't. I keep careful records of oil
consumption and have noted significant variation in consumption rates with
different brands, and further that while price is often an predictor of
consumption rate, some top price and name brand oils have relatively poorer
performance. Good record keeping is necessary to determine the brands that
your engine likes the best. Of course it is worth noting that the by far
the worst performing oil that will cause the fastest and most expensive
repair bill is the 'low level on dipstick'.

No mechanical component lasts forever, but gentle operation and careful
observation to sounds combined with regular maintenance and oil changes will
significantly increase service life. Maintenance is always a compromise
between smaller (but still very expensive) repairs before failure vs.
possible larger repairs later. In general I belong to the 'drive it until
it breaks' school of thought as this prevents performing a lot of
unnecessary repair, however when repairs are necessary I like to repair or
recondition everything at that time. Replacing a timing chain is a lot of
work and by the time the replacement is necessary ISTM that the head will
probably benefit from a valve regrind and new valve guides and while the
head is off it is not that much more work to drop the pan and do the rings
and roll in new bearings. If a new clutch is needed then this may be a good
time to do all the engine work while the engine is out.

Buying a used car is always a crap shoot as there is seldom any complete
record of maintenance and the young seller always claims to be a careful and
mature driver who never abused the car or drove it in an overly 'spirited'
manner. All that a new owner can do is to immediately change all fluids
(particularly coolant and transmission), perform all maintenance on a
regular schedule and then monitor (and record carefully)performance (and
sounds), operate gently and hope for the best. It is always easier to get
long service life from a machine that is purchased new and maintained and
operated carefully throughout its service life.

 

Indeed. Just like old times.

 

ok, I admit that I am "clearly lying" about everything except that you are a
troll and not a very nice person. Another fine example of why never to feed
a troll. Ciao!

 

The fact is: Saturn corporation has a long history of hiding EPIDEMIC
defects. They withold defect information as long as they can so they
can get as many customers as they can to drive their car over the
warranty period.

Not only that- you should not expect every Saturn dealer and repair
facility to warn you of epidemic defects which they have seen from
other owners who brought their car into their shop. Some will warn
you.

If you don't like the complaints that I receive from owners- take it
up with them. If you don't like the messenger- SHOOT ME!

 

Most of GM's TSB's tell techs how to

Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
muffler ready to fall off.

Aluminum heat shields over the exhaust system are held onto the frame
with STEEL bolts. The bolt heads rust through the shields in a year
and the shield fall off.

Stabilizer links (those cars that have them) sieze up in a year. Dirt
easily gets into the cheap, degrading rubber ball joint cups that are
supposed to protect those ball joints.

If you want to know more about "trivial" car problems- be sure to ask
MisterfactLIES!

 

That's what Saturn *admitted* to and played in the press. According to my (since departed) Saturn dealer service
manager, the problem was believed to have been corrected in the middle of the year *following* the upper range of
publicized years. My 1999 SL had the symptoms and although they didn't admit to it being caused by a casting flaw and
despite my vehicle being beyond the warrantee period, Saturn Division covered the parts costs (more than 1/2 of the
total on a retail price basis).

 

Most of GM's TSB's tell techs how to

Heh brainiac! You forgot to mention other "trivial things" like the
muffler straps on Saturn rust out in a year! (Saturn can't afford a
small piece of stainless steel) Look under ANY Saturn car an see a
muffler ready to fall off.
<snip>
Except mine.

 

Shame you dont hide your EPIDEMIC stupidity.

Trolls like you shouldnt go around making such offers.

In a year? Wow caught red handed in another lie. In another post you
made about 4 years ago you said it broke after 2 1/2 years. (Which
sounds typical for any car in Michigan.)
Oh and here is your quote:

But what else would we expect from a perpetual liar such as yourself. If
you're going to make stuff up at least be consistant about it. I guess
its easy to forget such things when you cant even consistently spell
your last name.

 

IMHE this is correct.

I have not noticed this problem, but have not checked this location for
corrosion.

I have yet to have any vehicle that did not have some problem.

I have a 1996 SOHC that was from the series with several head casting flaw
problems but have not as yet experienced any problem and can only think that
I got lucky. I learned of the possible problem just as the regular warranty
was ending and had an oil and coolant lab analysis done to check for
coolant/oil mixing both as the regular warranty and the extended head
replacement period were ending but found no problem. I now have almost 200k
miles on the engine with no serious problems. I do not expect any
manufacturer to do a 100% replacement on a component that has lasted for a
substantial portion of its expected service life. Saturn did offer a
generous extended warranty to cover this head casting flaw. At this point I
would not expect any help from Saturn if I have a head problem nor would I
take it to a Saturn dealer if a repair was required.

Good luck, but get over it.

 

Just like (and no worse than) every other manufacturer IMHE. There are
unflattering words that describe people who trust car dealers.

Good luck, but get over it.

 

It's not really the dealer's fault. The dealer isn't going to replace an
engine head at their own expense. In fact the dealers often admit to
customers that there are problems that the manufacturer knows about but
won't address.

There is a big difference in how manufacturer's react to manufacturing
problems that affect the vehicle to an extent that it becomes unusable,
or even to problems that result from lack of clear maintenance schedules.

It was amazing to see someone from Toyota's corporate office posting
their response to the sludge problem on Usenet!
"http://tinyurl.com/6o4fkr". Toyota is very concerned about their image
and getting bad press. Owner loyalty is extremely important to them
because they're looking long term, and a little money spent to bolster
their image is money well spent.

What's so sad about the casting flaw issue is that it would have cost
them very little extra to just cover everyone regardless of time or
mileage. Most of those other vehicles would either not have the problem
anyway, or would be scrapped for unrelated problems before the problem
occurred. The few extra repairs would have engendered a lot of owner
loyalty.

Yes, that's good advice, but I think he has the mentality of not only
never getting over being wronged, but letting the whole world know about
it as well.

 

I own *two* Saturns, and the muffler isn't "ready to fall off" of either one.

Dissimilar-metals corrosion between aluminum and steel corrodes the *steel*,
not the aluminum. If you're going to make up stories, at least try to make
them a tiny bit convincing. When your tall tales contradict scientific fact,
you expose yourself as a liar and a fool.

Not a problem on *my* Saturns. Wonder why you have so much trouble with yours?

 

I have seen severe corrosion of aluminum caused by steel bolts touching
aluminum combined with lots of road salt. You may be correct regarding the
scientific theory of steel corroding electrically but IMHE the aluminum is
usually consumed totally long before the steel. Good practice uses a thin
plastic washer or sheet under a steel washer under the bolt head and nut.

Just my .02

 

You are correct, I was too specific, I should have said 'who trust the car
industry.'

I agree that there is sometimes great variability of response to customer
concerns. It often seems to depend on current corporate profitability and
on product margin.

I agree, especially regarding the few additional failures occuring after
expiry of the extended waranty, but the bean counters and lawyers are in
charge of company policy and we know they tend to be mean and short sighted
in these matters. They probably saw no immediate gain in providing warranty
coverage to mainly second (or third) owners who were not good prospects to
purchase new models soon. I am sure that most of these people would have
been happy to receive a partial warranty in the form of highly discounted
new or rebuilt exchange head assembies which they could instal themselves
and would not result in Saturn paying the dealers a large amount for
warranty installation.

Most corporations talk customer loyalty and repeat business but few actually
invest the effort to develop it. I can only assume that the GM market
research has shown that 'you can't please all the people all the time' and
am sure that there is a point of diminishing returns. Toyota is a growing
company that is developing market share while GM is a company with both
declining market share and vision. How could Saturn discontinue the
excelent fuel efficient S series (particularly the SW1 model) in favor of
larger SUVs and niche market sports cars instead of developing an even more
fuel efficient turbo diesel? They did this at a time when 'peak oil' and
rising world oil demand and prices were quite obvious. Toyota has
manufactured the similar Corrola model for many many years and IIRC it
continues to sell well with much customer loyalty and repeat purchasers. I
would have purchased a new replacement for my SW1 several years ago but they
had discontinued the SOHC engine and Saturn (or GM) no longer manufacture
any mini SW model that fits my needs or interest.