Off to car heaven

But they're going out of business. So why does that matter?

 

You're right. There's a significant number of the population that will only
buy American. The numbers are declining, but are still there. Saturns and
Saabs are not American enough to appeal to this group. They're also not
European enough to appeal to those drivers who want something European
(typically meaning BMW or VAG stuff as Mercedes seems to have always been
its own appeal). Then there's the growing numbers who buy Japanese because
"it works."

The same thing sort of happened in the UK; when the population realised that
most of the home-built cars really were not put together properly and really
did apart after four years but the European / Japanese stuff was still
working, trends changed. Many Rovers were considered to be good cars in
their day, usually had design faults or characteristics, but weren't so
"meh" to drive as something Japanese nor as expensive as something European.

Ahhh I remember the import restrictions on Japanese cars in the early
1980s...

 

The restrictions for Japanese cars still exist across the EU as far as I
know (import quotas), and they whey the Japanese bypassed that was to
set up factories within the EU. Imported cars are still subject to quotas.

 

There is not really any "significant" number of the population that will
only buy American. Never has been - at least not for the past 30 years.
There have been buy American campaigns, but outside of those groups that
fostered those campaigns, there has never really been a successful movement
to do so. There certainly is not now.

Saturn was designed to appeal to a very narrow group and it did so. It's
own reputation is what hurt Saturn. Saab is not an American car regardless
who owns it. Saab has though, held quite steadily to it's market segment.
It never did develop a large market segment, but not because it wasn't
American enough.

I think you are over analyzing this stuff.

 

Baloney. I know many people who will only buy Ford, GM or Chrysler.
A significant number of people.
If you don't know this it's only because of the company you keep.
But you don't have to personally know these people.
http://promomagazine.com/research/car-shoppers-buy-american-0109/
"One-third of respondents to the survey conducted by Kelley Blue Book
Marketing Research said they would only buy cars produced in America,
while 12% indicated interest in buying Japanese-made cars and 5%
expressed a preference for German vehicles."

If that's not clear enough, another take
http://www.wmur.com/automotive/18445529/detail.html
"One-third of new-vehicle shoppers say they would only consider cars
from U.S.-based manufacturers such as General Motors, Ford or
Chrysler, and that they would not consider vehicles from any other
countries."

One third is a significant number.
And that number has been much higher less than thirty years ago.
If you have something to dispute except opinion, fire away.

--Vic

 

Ok - I'll conceed to a certain point. I'll contend though that it is more
because of what they like in those cars than it is because of a
nationalistic thing - which I may have mistakenly read into the original
post. I was responding to that nationalisitic thought - which may not have
been what the OP intended in his post.

Ok - I'll conceed again. That percentage actually surprises me somewhat.

Relax Vic. Geezus - you're getting too fired up over this. It's only a
usenet conversation - complete with opinions.

 

No anger intended. Sorry if it sounded that way.
But it is actually a hot button of mine, as I buy American for
nationalistic reasons. And that quote above says I'm not alone.
"Not consider" seems to imply that,
At the same time, I'm highly pissed at the "Big 3" for producing so
much crap, and don't begrudge others for going foreign.
Since I buy used, and know what to pick, I get very good value in
buying GM. So I can't say it's *all* nationalistic. Some is just
being frugal with cars.
If I were a new car buyer, especially one who got burned by the 3, I
might think differently.
So until I kick in more than my normal few grand for a car, my
credibility is suspect.

--Vic

 

If you buy American for nationalistic reasons, lets define this further. Do
you mean world wide headquarters are in the USA?

I ask that as I don't believe there is a 100% American vehicle in common
consumer market today, not a one. If it is American content you are after,
you might be surprized the Japanese named branded often have higher NA
content that others even the D3. Which also raises, did the parts come from
US, Mexico or Canada? In a typical vehicle today, any manuafacturer there
are at least 10 countries involved. Electronics from Tiawan, bolts for
Japan, seats from Mexico as was the engine block. Steel from China, frames
from Canada, rubber from Brazil, etc.

So if shopping American made is your goal, could be a Japanese name to go
with it. The D3 myth is that only D3 make American went by the wayside over
30 years ago and has been decaying ever since to a point that judging by the
name for American content no longer is a truism.

 

Wrong! The American's hasn't learned a thing yet. Just look at which car was
the best selling in the US in 2008!!
It was only because the gas-prices where skyrocketing, that the Americans
started to look for alternatives. Now as gas-prices has lowerede again, the
people who can afford to buy a new car, are right back on the ol' track....

I'll bet, that the 2008 bestseller, will become so again in 2009....!

Cheers!

 

There have been some good cars produced under those names...and I hope
they'll find a way to continue. But...not under GM. GM has acquired
other companies for years beginning with Oldsmobile and ending with
Hummer. By and large it's been a 101-year disaster. GM has only one
way of doing things and it's not a good one now for the 21st century.
When they have such a large market share, their disaster becomes our
disaster. A steadily shrinking GM is much better for the American
economy than a suddenly-collapsing one. The entire idea behind 'GM' is
wrong in the age of instant messaging and widespread computer tools
(top-down management and corporate structure, stifled innovation, the
total is more important than the sums, etc.) and it's time for 'GM' to
slowly fade into history and give way to manufacturing structures from
other companies more attuned to contemporary times. GM was the right
idea for the industrial revolution in the early 20th century but now
they are way past their time. The best thing that could possibly happen
to the brands listed above is to cut loose. Maybe they'll go out of
business but they would have gone away anyway and this way they might
have a chance at some sort of new life.

 

It's really simple. Whatever product provides the most work here.
I could not care less about corporations - or shareholders.

Of course. That's why the U.S. is essentially bankrupt.

That's BS on the 30 years. Check your facts.
If it had been that long the balance of trade deficit would have got
us to where we now are years ago.
It took little longer than 20 years for unbridled globalism to do us
in.
It was mid-80's before a Jap car became a sales leader here.
Think it was the Camry in 85 or 87.
Probably all were imported from Japan.
Even then the Camry was considerably outsold by the GM equivalent when
Chevy/Buick/Old same frame models were combined.
That would be Chevy Celebrity/Olds Ciera/Pontiac 6000.
Hell, the Jap plants here were importing most of their parts from
Japan well into the 90's.
I would buy a Jap car that provided more work here before I'd buy a
mostly Mexican or Canadian made "American" car.
BTW, I consider Canada a foreign country too, and our trade deficit
with them should be balanced.
Balance of trade is not a difficult concept to understand.
Others can do what suits them.

--Vic

 

There's a large number of people who will always buy a truck or SUV
(regardless of the fact that they don't need it). Big toys for little
boys. Cowboys on the road.

At the same time, quite a few Americans have smartened up and few have
the anti-foreign or "buy American" idiocy they had in the past. The
change in mix of cars in the USA over the last 30 years is
significant.

 

The company I keep ranges form kids getting out of high school to WW
II vets. At all levels, people are buying foreign. Attitudes have
changed significantly over the last 30 years. There are not many folks
left who will only "buy American". In contrast, I know quite a few
folks that have espoused "never by another American made POS again".
Seem the Big 3 dug themselves into quite a hole with the unwanted,
unreliable crap they've manufactured.

Another meaningless "what would you buy" and "what do you prefer"
survey. Check the percentage of vehicles on the road for Japanese &
other non-American manufacturers. Try to prove that actual buying
habits reflect that survey in any way, shape, or form.

 

Amazing - we buy in exactly the same way. I did switch from GM to Hyundai
for the last two cars, and it's been good for me, but I was
dyed-in-the-wool GM for the longest time - over 35 years. Like you, I got
really pissed at GM for the manner in which they treated customers and
ignored longstanding problems with their designs. I too only buy used
(usually 1-2 model years old, 25K miles or so typically). I've had great
GM cars, but the amount of repeat work I used to do on them finally pissed
me off enough that I tried something else. Now - I wish they'd get rid of
the Board and Wagoner, and get back to making the great cars that they are
capable of, and standing behind them.

 

Actually, my wife's SUV (Saturn VUE) is quite small. Not sure why you equate
SUV with huge size.

I only have a midsize Avalanche. I'd love an Excursion but they are just
too big to fit in the tiny parking stalls they make nowdays.

I was having a discussion with one of my staff members just a few minutes
ago.

He had just bought a '09 Infiniti (Nissan) G37s Coupe. I was telling him
how I'd be interested in either the new Maxima (2009) or a Malibu for my
wife. (She prefers sports sedans to her SUV, now that the kids can enter
and exit the car themselves.)

He commented how neither he nor his friends would ever buy an American car.
Keep in mind, he's 24 and single.

I see it every day. I wrote this on the Avalanche Club site back in late
December. I was leaving the park with my rugrats and noticed the cars in
the lot.


There were two Mercedes.
One BMW.
Two Lexus.
Two Toyota.
One Honda.
One Acura.
One Infiniti

Now, though the Mercedes was nice - it was a S600 - I felt a bit overwhelmed
by the fact that the only North American vehicle there was my Avalanche.
You can certainly see that US cars are in the minority where I live.

 

Which we get as the Vauxhall/Opel Antara, basically the same things as
the Chevrolet (Daewoo) Captiva. Hardly "small".

Because they tend to be.

That's "midsize" as in "roughly the size of a house", I presume?

Oh, and please don't just change follow-ups mid-thread. It's a fairly
authoritative sign of a fuckwit.

 

Doubtful GM will come back this time. GM is like when the Titanic went
under and someone asked how to avoid the collision. A tad bit too late once
the holds are full of water. If the GM board and Wagoner were going to
turn the GM dog around, he should have started a long time ago. And
Wagoner, for making $14.4M in 2007, doesn't seem to own too much GM stock.

And most people concur, this depression is here to stay, which will seal GMs
prediciment.

 

The best thing for GM is what Wagoner wants to avoid as his salary will be
cut. Chapter 11. Chapter 11 forces the issues to be resolved by creditors,
suppliers, unions, management with a no BS right now attitude. For if they
don't, chapter 7.

In chapter 7, worst case GM as it exists now is sold off to recover as much
as possible for the creditors. Everything will be sold off. This also
includes the GM trademarks and plants.

With GM in chapter 7, some smart billionaires will buy enough of GM without
the baggage and start GM New, maybe even eventually relisted as GMN.
Seriously, a GM reborn but without the baggage. Many will even be rehired
but as if in a brand new company and in a way to bypass union issues, likely
term contract work so if you are a trouble maker they just drop your
renewal.

It is also possible GM Europe and GM China are sold off into seperate
business units with no real relationship to GM North America. And will go
their own way.

GM will not die completely, but it will be forced into a real and tangible
re-organization without the rehtoric and BS seen so far.

 

Lots of them, Bubba.. I drove one just recently. It was like a new car.

 

Have you ever driven in one?? My knees are pretty damn cramped in the car
with the seat all the way back. Aside from the seats being way too narrow.

Ford Escape? Saturn Vue? Toyota Rav4? Honda Pilot? Nissan Pathfinder? (I
would still like to find one of the original two-door models.)

Nope. At least my head doesn't touch the headliner much.

Nah, it is just good usenet etiquette. No reason to xpost the follow ups all
over.

I'm surprised Pan doesn't do it for you. I haven't used Pan since "She
Crawled Across the Floor" but IIRC, it did the same automatically. (I'm on
KNode right now.)