Oil Life

My wife bought a 2005 Ion and has put 4000 miles on it so far. The oil
life warning has yet to signal a time for a change. The dealer says
bring it in every 3000 mile, but at $40 a pop, I think they are more
interested in making money. What is normal on these?

Thanks in advance;
Chuck

 

Oil should be changed at 3,000 miles. If you think $40 is high, then have
it done someplace cheaper.

 

Yeah, like an idiot I used to take my 92 SL1 to dealer for oil changes
because my dealer told me that I HAVE to bring it there. Soon as I
found out that I could have a lube shop do it for me without affecting
the warranty I started taking my car to Mr Lube where is was half the
cost of the dealer PLUS it was done on the spot.
With the dealer I had to take a loaner car home.... gimme a break.

Ever since the warranty ran out on the car I started to do my own oil
changes. I change the oil every 6000-7000 miles (always put Castrol
Syntec 5-50 in it). My car now has 280,000 miles on it and still going
strong.

 

When I purchased by Vue, the dealer gave me the same lame
recommendation. I posted this recommendation here, and a GM engineer
actually took the time to email me about it. There is an explanation of
how the system works at
http://www.gmtechlink.com/images/issues/arcv_pdf/3_00_e.pdf (site is
going to be closed at the end of December, so look fast). I was a
little worried, since my Vue didn't call for an oil change in almost
7000 miles. So when I finally changed the oil, I collected a sample and
sent it off for analysis. The lab said it was in good condition and was
good for at least another 3000 miles.

The 3000 mile oil chage fanactics are mostly repeating their
grandfather's wisdom. 3000 mile oil changes have been the
recommendation for years despite the fact that oil is much better how
and engines are much much better better now. The removal of lead from
gasoline, good PCV system, better air filters and, most importatntly,
fuel injection have all worked to reduce the amount of contamination
that is added to the oil At the same time, the oils have been improved
greatly. Modern oils are far superior to the oil from even 15 years
ago. Yet, some people continue to claim you must change your oil every
3000 miles or your engine will die. Well it just isn't true for most
vehicels (apparently it is if you own a Toyota). Mostly the 3000 mile
oil change chat is designed to rransfer moeny from your pocket to the
pocket of the oil change places.

Ed

 

You could have been doing them yourself all along. NO car manufacturer can
demand you pay to have the oil changed, and they ABSOLUTELY CANNOT deny a
warranty claim due to any oil related issue. I've replaced engines with
40,000 plus miles on them with the factory oil filter. I've seen dozens of
engines replaced or repaired with the original oil filter on them. (they're
painted like the engine). It makes no difference. I would like to know
where people get these bogus stories about <whiny voice on> "well my dealer
told me blah blah blah. " <whiny voice off> That is bullshit. No dealer
would say such a thing, because it is just flat not true.

 

Wow! My dealer only seems to be a couple of dollars more expensive than
the ads I see for the quicky lube shops and I only have to wait 20 - 60
(almost always about 30-35) minutes! Your dealer sure is lame!

HUH?????? You sorely challenge your own credibility by suggesting that
all dealers always tell the truth. Did you really intend it the way it
sounds (to me) or have I misunderstood you?

 

You don't think a car salesman would lie ?

ron

 

Steve, that was 15 years ago when I was young, stupid and naive. I have
learned my lesson since. Now I do my own oil changes (every 6000-8000
miles), and my own car repairs. My car goes to a mechanic only when
there is something I can't do, ie. tire changes, A/C work, etc.
But I'm not kidding you, the oil change used to cost be about 40-45
dollars and for some strange reason they just couldn't do it the same
day. My dealer sure was.....and I'm sure it still is....lame.

 

That is bullshit. No dealer would say such a thing, because it is just flat not true.

HUH? A dealer that doesn't lie? My goodness, what was I thinking? I am
soooooo sorry to any car dealer that might be reading this.

NOT!!

 

You'll be hard pressed to find any vehicle manufacturer that has
recommended 3K mile oil changes. The first generation Saturns were one
exception, and this was because of the way the timing chain tensioner
worked, using oil as essentially a hydraulic fluid to ratchet up the
tensioner. The oil needed to be very clean or varnish would build up in
the timing chain tensioner bore, and would prevent the tensioner from
working properly.

5K is more than enough these days, with a huge margin of safety, and
7500 for non-severe driving is just fine.

 

FWIW, a gentleman on the Volvo mailing list a few years ago ran up to 3000
miles and then took samples every 500 miles for analysis. The first sign of
oil breakdown was between 5500 and 6000.

I aim for 3000, usually get to it by 4000 or 4500. I use Castrol GTX.

-David

 

Perhaps I generalized too much. I am in the greater KC area and the dealers
here are all top notch. They have to be honest or the public will not stand
for it. It's too easy to contact the district rep of any given maker and
get to the bottom of what is and what is not warranted to take a chance by
lying to a customer. I know it happens, because I had a situation with a
ford dealer in CHILLICOTHE, OHIO 6 years ago that still leaves a bad taste
in my mouth. I had to deal with them from here via phone and when I
contacted Ford after the fact, they told me I should have initiated the
complaint process whilst the truck was still there.

 

The salesmen don't run the shop. And yes, I know salesmen are lower than a
lawyer. They are so low that whale shit on the bottom of the ocean looks
like a cloud to them.

 

The funny thing is that there is no benefit to lying. I never did
understand dealers that do.

 

WRONG. The oils have changed. You are right in that respect. BUT engines
are still cast iron and aluminum, and oil still gets dirty in 3,000 miles.
Awful cheap insurance to change it. I never did figger people out who want
to cheap out in this department. Same people who won't check the air in
the tires and then blame the tire manufacturer when they blow I guess.

 

Few subjects generate as much debate on Usenet as the proper oil change
interval. Since few people bother with oil analysis the debate centers
on time and mileage.

Follow the Money
----------------
Unfortunately, there are market forces that have a vested interest in
convincing vehicle owners to change their oil more often than necessary.
The legal prey of these market forces have become convinced that they
are purchasing "cheap insurance" or "peace of mind" by changing their
oil more often than necessary. Complicating things is the fact that
doing oil changes is one of the few do-it-yourself maintenance tasks
that is still within the ability of the backyard mechanic to perform.

Recreational Oil Changing
-------------------------
The term "recreational oil changer" was coined to define people that
change their oil far more than necessary because they actually enjoy
doing it. It's easy to understand the psychology behind the recreational
oil changing. It's the visceral feel of the tools, the victory when that
old oil filter breaks free, the hot dirty oil pouring out, the joy of
oiling of the gasket on the new filter, that new copper or fiber gasket
on the drain plug, the clean clear oil going in, and the sense of
accomplishment when you start the car, the oil light comes on for a
moment, then goes out. For $8-10 in oil and parts, it's pretty cheap
entertainment, but if people would be content to do it only when it
provides some benefit to the vehicle it would be better.

The 3000 Mile Myth
------------------
The 3000 mile oil change interval has been pounded into people's heads
for decades. It had a scientific basis when engines used
non-multi-weight, non-detergent oil. It no longer has any scientific
basis, but it is still being promoted by certain entities, most notably
the oil change industry in the United States. This myth is also
sometimes known as the "Cheap Insurance Myth."

The 3000 Mile Fact
------------------
There are still vehicles that need 3K oil changes, but it's not because
the oil goes bad after 3K miles. One example is the Saturn S series.
These vehicles have a timing chain system that is very sensitive to
clean oil because oil pressure is used as hydraulic fluid to ratchet up
the timing chain tensioner. If varnish forms in the timing chain
tensioner bore then this system can fail and the chain will become loose
and eventually break. Dealers have gone as far as tearing out the normal
service schedule (6000 miles) and leaving only the severe service
schedule. If your engine is destroyed (under warranty) by a failed
timing chain then the dealer will legitimately request evidence of oil
changes. Unfortunately this problem usually won't manifest itself during
the warranty period.

The Dark Oil Myth
-----------------
Dark oil does not indicate the need for an oil change. The way modern
detergent motor oil works is that minute particles of soot are suspended
in the oil. These minute particles pose no danger to your engine, but
they cause the oil to darken. A non-detergent oil would stay clearer
than a detergent oil because all the soot would be left on the internal
engine parts and would create sludge. If you never changed your oil,
eventually the oil would no longer be able to suspend any more particles
in the oil and sludge would form. Fortunately, by following the
manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, you are changing your
oil long before the oil has become saturated. Remember, a good oil
should get dirty as it does it's work cleaning out the engine. The
dispersant should stop all the gunk from depositing in the oil pan.

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing
is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to
bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and
simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe
service. There are still a few cars that specify 3K intervals for severe
service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the
oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal
interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S.

Severe Service versus Normal Service
------------------------------------
Each manufacturer specifies what constitutes normal and severe service.
Generally, severe service consists of operating the vehicle in a very
muddy or dusty areas (because dust particles get through the air filter
and contaminate the oil more quickly), operating the vehicle in a very
hot areas (heat breaks down oil more quickly), using the vehicle only
for short trips in cold weather (the moisture in the oil never gets
vaporized), or using the vehicle for towing or when carrying a car-top
carrier. You'll often see claims such as "everyone falls into the severe
service category," but these claims are untrue (follow the money and see
who's making these claims). If you primarily do freeway driving in
moderate weather you do not fall into the severe service category. If
you're in doubt, the best way to see if you fall into the severe service
category is to have an oil analysis done at the mileage of the severe
service interval. Many people just like to play it safe and follow the
severe service schedule, which is fine, but there is no benefit in
changing the oil sooner than the severe service schedule states.


As Click and Clack state:

"Over here, we use mostly traditional, petroleum-based motor oil. And
most manufacturers now recommend changing the oil every 7,500 miles. We
recommend doing it every 5,000 miles, because we tend to be more
cautious about protecting the engine. Very few people recommend changing
the oil every 3,000 miles. It's just not necessary, and the
environmental cost is too high."

 

Thanks for the good factual info and your opinions. Your entire response
was predicated on the mileage, but there was no mention of the aging/time
component. Most places that recommend 3,000 mile oil changes also add that
it's "3K or 3 months, whichever comes first."

Do you have any similar facts or opinions on the aging component? (I have
my own, but would love to hear others views.) Thanks in advance.

Bob



Details removed

 

Six months according to Mobil.

 

Well I change my oil in my Saturn Ion 2004 when the oil life monitor tells
me too. So far it's been around 7,000 miles and I have 27000 miles on the
car.

I also have a Dodge Durango 2004 Hemi with 20000 miles on it and I follow
the suggested 3000 miles/3 months for the oil change since I do not want the
dealer to say it cannot do a warranty repair since I did do the 3000 mile
thing.

I plan on keeping these two until it costs too much to repair or they until
they reach 7 years old or 200000 miles. I'll let everyone know what one
engine goes first and I know it's not a fair comparison but it's the best
one I can do. Not unless someone has the same vehicle and does the opposite
we can compare.

 

I thought you were of the opinion not to believe the marketing info from oil
manufacturers since they benefited from shorter oil change intervals? I was
more interested in understanding what happens to the oil over time that
makes it require changing and if this varied based on usage/no usage. I
mean, if Mobil One sitting in a sealed plastic quart bottle stays good
indefinitely until used, then why does it magically break down once placed
into a crankcase? I do understand that the oil gets contaminated through
use and also can accumulate water from condensation, etc. but won't this get
evaporated back out when the engine gets hot?

The reason for my question is that I have a summer pleasure vehicle that I
put away each winter and generally only drive for 2-3K miles per year. I
use Mobil One in that vehicle, but only change the oil every Spring so it
gets done once a year. I have not had any issues... I also have another
vehicle that gets driven about 5-6K miles per year. This one gets changes
at 3K miles so gets changed about 2x per year. I also have seen no issues
with this vehicle either. Just wondering what others do and the
logic/science behind the rationale.

Thanks

Bob