Oil question What the manual says, vs. what Dad says.

Aw. I'm sorry. I set you up.

On the IONs, the battery is already in the trunk...

By the way, do you know where I can get any power steering fluid for my
IONs?

 

Saturns, it is due to the Saturn factory using Hastings piston rings.

It probably isn't cost effective past 100k miles. It all depends how much oil
the burning, how much the car is worth, how much money you have, and how much
of the work you can do on your own.

 

Sorry, but if an engine is burning oil, putting a bypass oil filter on it

Where did I say that regular oil changes would stop oil burning? I didn't. What
I said was, "you are no more likely to have an oil burning problem then if you
have a secondary filter. " Its not the same. If your rings are frozen, a bypass
filter isn't going to fix it. Sorry.

Yeah, no shit the main cause of engine oil consumption is worn out engine
components. But all you have to do to prevent excessively dirty oil and worn
engine components is change the oil regularly.

Wow, you know how a piston ring works. The ring in question here, however, is
the oil control ring. I know what causes oil consumption in Saturn engines
because I have taken them apart myself before. I'll take your line. Have you
ever taken your own engine apart to figure out what is wrong with it? Didn't
think so.

How are you saving on new oil, filter elements, and engine repairs? Are you
suggesting that your change your oil less regularly now? With the bypass
filter, you now have 2 filters to change, and added cost in oil(how much extra
do you need per change?). PLUS the original "not too much money" couple hundred
bucks.

 

The second engine had 40k miles when it was put in and yes it burned a

As far as you know; is wrong. Not all burn oil.

You have no evidence that it will stop it, because it won't. By the way, when
my engine was on its slow descent to its final oil consumption rate of a qt/250
mi before I rebuilt it, it didn't matter how dirty the oil was. It sucked oil,
clean or dry. They tend to do that when the oil control ring is frozen.

 

Aw. I'm sorry. I set you up.

LOL, you're terrible Kirk. Made the poor guy write up a whole tutorial .

Gee, where can you find some power steering fluid?

 

Aisle 7 at Kragens right next to the muffler bearings...

....Kirk, we can't take you anywhere.

 

Wow, you know how a piston ring works. The ring in question here, however, is

Replacing the oil rings on the Saturn engine is a great idea and I
am confident that would also fix the oil burning problem. However I
can guarantee 99% of the people on this newsgroup wouldn't know how to
take the engine out of their car, let alone take it apart to replace
oil rings. Plus the investment in time, parts, and tools is alot more
money for most people than a bypass filter installation.

Quoting from http://www.afcee.brooks.af.mil/eq/modelshop/ppo/index.asp?ppo=id92390&task=changeoil:
"By keeping the engine oil cleaner, and by removing water entrained in
the oil, bypass filters can extend the useful life of oil and better
protect the engine from damage."
With a bypass filter, the oil can be changed less often. This is
because there is roughly 100x (or more depending on model) the filter
medium in a bypass filter than an OEM spin-on filter and it keeps your
oil perpetually clean. The spin-on filter becomes irrelevant because
the bypass filter gives you an equivalent of 2-2.5 engine flushes
every hour (8-10L/hour oil flow). As long as the anti-drainback
doesn't get old on the OEM filter you can continue to use it. Amsoil,
the maker of the dual remote bypass filter, recommends a spin-on (OEM)
filter change once every year. For Synthetic oil, www.wefilterit.com
recommends 25k change intervals and OEM filter replacements every 12k
miles. With the Frantz, gulf coast, and motorguard filters, the cost
is cheap because they use either bathroom tissue (toilet paper rolls)
or paper towel rolls (about 50 cents per BP element). The length of
extended oil change interval depends on the type of oil you have and
how the car is driven, etc. But in the end you win because it is a
return of investment. The initial costs of the bypass filter are
anywhere between $100-200 depending on if you get a complete kit or
decide to buy a working used filter from Ebay. Each oil change that
you don't need to do saves you at least $10. You also save on engine
repairs. Thus, even if your engine doesn't reduce in oil consumption,
you will still get an ROI. Not so much with a piston ring swap.


http://www.orau.gov/deer/presentations/Session3/Francfort - Deer 04 Session 3.pdf
http://www.puradyn.com/news/101404_DOE.pdf

The department of energy's ongoing bypass filter study:
http://avt.inel.gov/obp

 

Replacing the oil rings on the Saturn engine is a great idea and I

Yeah, you're right, most don't. And yes, it is a big investment in time, parts,
and tools. BUT, it WILL fix the oil burning. A bypass oil filter WILL NOT
unstick your rings!

Thats all well and good. But do you really trust your dino oil to 25k changes?
I believe the polymers would long be broken down due to the stress and heat
cycles, no matter how clean the filter can keep it.

Your right, you won't save any money(ie, ROI) with a piston ring swap. Its not
an investment! Its fixing something broken! You are arguing with me about
something different. You are trying to say that a BP filter will stop oil
burning. I am saying that it will not because it won't unstick your stuck
piston rings(which is the cause of excessive oil burning). Will a BP filter
keep your oil cleaner? Certainly. Will it save on engine repairs? Doubtful
because if you take care of your engine and change the oil regularly, you
aren't going to be any more likely to have catastrophic engine failure then you
are if you have a BP filter. Regular oil changes will keep the oil clean. As
clean as a BP filter? Probably not. But does that tiny tiny tiny extra
clean-ness matter? Doubtful.

How much extra oil do you run with it?

 

High filtration bypass filters were effective at prolonging engine
life on the old engines with heavy castings that typically wore out
and were rebuildable. Many modern engines with EFI, improved bearing
materials, and the modern filters usually fail ultimately by cracking
or otherwise breaking a block, head, or reciprocating member. This is
because the modern small displacement engine runs at higher mean BMEP,
and is made out of highly designed lost foam castings engineered for
minimum weight. Another interesting fact is that most cars go to the
crusher with the engine still mechanically runnable, having the engine
never been removed from the car and the head or pan never off it.

I now have three OM 617 Benz engines sitting in my garage that I have
bought for a project. One has a completely failed injection pump and
the other two were running but low compression, hence hard cold start,
when their host vehicles were euthanized. Rust-and in one case the
rotted corpse of the 80-year-old owner found inside the car dead for a
week, in July-devalued them to where it "wasn't worth fixing them."
The other two were operated until they wouldn't start without killing
the battery and then were put up for hauloff. I dragged them home,
pulled out everything usable,and hauled them to the scrapper. I sold
the transmissions for core for more than I paid for the cars for what
that's worth.

 

You have no evidence that it will stop it, because it won't. By the way, when

You don't have any proof of this. Your idea of clean oil is oil
that gets dirty withing a few hundred miles of driving. You have not
experienced clean oil, at least not for a relevant amount of time.
Motor oil in a Saturn turns black within only the first 500-1k miles
after an oil change. Plus you have lots of engine deposits that don't
come out with a simple flush or oil change. The only way you will
notice a difference in oil consumption is if you either don't drive it
or install a filter that takes care of the majority of particles that
affect the engine. These particles will also cause the most wear
since they get inbetween moving parts. When oil is dirty, piston
rings expand, valve seals lose their seal. The microscopic clearances
let in oil because oil molecules are thinner than the wear particles.
Just think how many millions of engine revolutions it takes to get
3000 miles out of a car. When the car burns a quart in 3k miles, this
is an eternity for the engine. The microscopic problem with engine
clearances in the end turns into a much larger problem.

Imagine someone is driving 70 MPH on the freeway. For the Saturn,
this is equivalent to about 2800 rpm. It will take you
3000miles/(70mph) = 42.8 hours to get 3k miles. This means that the
number of revolutions that your engine completes in 3k miles is
(2800rpm) * (60min/hour) * (42.8 hours) = 7.19 million revolutions.
This is assuming that the car travels at a constant speed w/o
hills/accelerating.

After putting the Frantz on my Saturn, the motor oil no longer
turns black from all the soot. The oil burning issue is indiscernible
- always stays at the same level on the dipstick. Even after 10k
miles without oil changes I have not found the slightest oil burning.
It also doesn't give the bad oil smell on hard acceleration and during
bumper-to-bumper traffic when the engine is very hot.

 

Wow. I sure wouldn't go 10,000 between changes no matter what. Oil's
pretty much shot by that point. It's not just an issue of dirty, it's
an issue of it breaking down on a chemical level...

 

You don't have any proof of this. Your idea of clean oil is oil

I EXPERIENCED it. I HAVE PROOF. I KNOW that it burned the same amount, qt/250
mi, on brand new oil! It doesn't matter how new the oil is if your oil control
rings are stuck!!! Think about it!!

Obviously you don't know what you're talking about since you quote "piston
rings expand" when oil gets dirty.

And your point is?

Yeah, and neither does mine. You still haven't proven that it stops oil
burning. Why? Because it doesn't.

 

Wow. I sure wouldn't go 10,000 between changes no matter what. Oil's

Thats what I'm saying! I think I said that a few posts up. He said he'd go
25,000 miles. It doesn't matter how dirty the oil is, when the chemical bonds
break down.

 

Why did you put a 40k mile oil-burning engine in instead of a rebuild?

Bullshit.

You said "In fact my engine now has eliminated the oil burning
completely!" and "The effort is worth it because in the end you get
a cleaner/ quieter running engine and the peace of mind when it stops
burning oil."

You made the claim TWICE.

-DanD