ritz

are you sure that if the camshaft position sensor is bad the engine wont run.
.... want to know

 

99% of the time when the cam or crank sensor fails, the engine won't
run. All those sensors do is tell the ECU when either the cam or the
crank has rotated. It does that by sending a pulse (a zero or 1 if you
will) at each rotation. They normally don't fail in a "sometimes it
works, sometimes it doesn't" fashion. It either works or it doesn't.
Without that signal, the engine shouldn't start.

Cheers,

 

thanks ritz one more quesstion hope you dont mind . are you a auto mechanic.
IS EVERYONE HERE AUTO MECHANIC EXCEPT OF COURSE THE ONE THAT HAVE A PROBLEM

 

Yes, I am, though I don't do it for a living anymore. I'm certified by
ASE (which is pretty Mickey Mouse), Audi, VW, and Porche. My knowledge
of Fords comes from being a long-term Mustang enthusiast.

Cheers,

 

As mentioned before Saturn 1.9's dont have a cam sensor.

Actually most can run without the cam sensor but not without the crank
sensor.

 

bla bla hi again i went today to saturn dealer and show them what i learn
from you they dont want to listen they want me to spend money. you told me
there is no camshaft position sensor on saturn SL1 1996 1.9 they said they
have its 163.35 dollar . im tryin so hard to go easy way . i went to another
shop they told me the same way they told me they well order it for me take 2
days i need to bring at least 300.00 for the part n labor. waht do i need to
do only got 30 days

 

You need to stick with one thread. I dont know what CarKB is doing but
it seems to be making things difficult on you.

Huhhhhhhhh? I went to advanceautoparts.com and found NOTHING under cam
sensors. I went to AutoZones website and a cam sensor actually did pop
up in the search for about $13 bucks... What is it they have for 13
bucks??? What is it the dealership has for $163 bucks??? I haven't a
clue because I found NO information on installing or testing a cam
sensor in my "GM Service Information" program.

What I did find is the following if you want to print it out and slap
it down on the counter for them to read. Far be it from me to tell a
Saturn Dealership how to work on Saturns... So I'll let the GM Manual
Making Gods do it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------ 1996-98 Saturn S-Series -----------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MIL Service Engine Soon Telltale On with DTCs P0340 and/or P0341, Cam
Sensor Circuit Performance #98-T-49A - (01/06/2003)
(MIL) SERVICE ENGINE SOON Telltale On with Diagnostic Trouble Codes
(DTCs) P0340 and/or P0341, Cam Sensor Circuit Performance (Diagnose and
Repair as Necessary using Updated Diagnostic Information Contained in
this Bulletin) This bulletin has been revised to incorporate the
ignition coil assembly (P/N 1616773) as a service part and supercedes
bulletin 98-T-49, which should be discarded.

1996-1998 Saturn S-Series vehicles
Condition

Vehicle may experience the (MIL) SERVICE ENGINE SOON telltale On with
DTCs P0340 and/or P0341.
Cause

DTCs P0340 and P0341 may be caused by incorrect resistance in the
secondary ignition system. This incorrect resistance can cause the EI
Module to incorrectly signal the cam position to the PCM.

Correction

The diagnostic information for DTCs P0340 and P0341 has been updated to
included inspection of various secondary ignition components.

Object Number: 886114 Size: MF
Click here for detailed picture of above image.
CMP SENSOR CIRCUIT PERFORMANCE (Chart 1 of 2)

For complete description of circuit operation, refer to Circuit
Description on page 6 of this bulletin.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS

Important

A cam pulse signal error may not effect engine operation.

* Inspect EI module coil towers and plug wire connections for
corrosion or other signs of poor retention at connections.
* Wire resistance 1.5k to 15k ohms.
* Wire positioning on coils 4-1-2-3.
* Coil pack secondary resistance (tower-to-tower) 8K-15K ohms
* Spark plug gap 1.0 mm (.040 in.)
* Check connector at EI Module using gray male adapter (from
connector test adapter kit J-35616A) to ensure a good mechanical
connection at terminal D, circuit 633. Repair if needed.

Notes on Diagnostic Chart 1:

1. This test measures the resistance of both spark plug wires,
ignition coil, and the connections made between the coil towers and
spark plug wires.
2. Carbon tracing on the spark plug porcelain insulator could easily
be confused with darkened dielectric grease. To distinguish grease from
carbon tracking, clean the spark plug insulator with a rag and solvent
such as Saturn Brake and Choke Cleaner (P/N 21007432). Carbon tracking
produces gray-black lines that cannot be removed from the insulator.

Important

After saltwater spray test is complete, engine compartment must be
rinses thoroughly with clean water.
3. Use a 10 percent saltwater solution for best results. Start
misting the EI module and spark plug terminals at the EI module first,
then mist each spark plug wire from the EI module to the plug.
flow chart missing


Object Number: 886114 Size: MF
Click here for detailed picture of above image.
CMP SENSOR CIRCUIT PERFORMANCE (Chart 2 of 2)

For complete description of circuit operation, refer to Circuit
Description on page 6 of this bulletin.

DIAGNOSTIC AIDS

Important

A cam pulse signal error may not effect engine operation.

* Inspect EI module coil towers and plug connections for corrosion
or other signs of poor retention at connections.
* Wire resistance 1.5K to 15K ohms.
* Wire positioning on coils 4-1-2-3.
* Coil pack secondary resistance (tower-to-tower) 8K-15K ohms
* Spark plug gap 1.0 mm(040 in.)
* Check connector at EI Module using gray adapter (from connector
test adapter kit J-35616A)

Notes on Diagnostic Chart 2:

1. If this test is performed without a full power down of the PCM,
voltage readings may not be accurate.
2. The PCM produces a 5 volt signal that is pulled to ground less
than 50% of the time. Therefore, the voltage displayed on the voltmeter
should be approximately 3 volts (in the range of 2.0 to 4.0 volts). This
reading will vary on the voltmeter display.
flow chart missing


Object Number: 886114 Size: MF
Click here for detailed picture of above image.

The cam signal is a 5 volt signal (circuit 633) that is pulled to ground
to inform the PCM that #4 cylinder has fired on compression. A much
higher voltage is needed to fire a cylinder that is on the compression
stroke. The EI module monitors this firing voltage on the #1--4 coil to
determine if cylinder #1 or cylinder #4 is firing. This signal, along
with the double pulse received from the CKP sensor, synchronizes fuel
timing.

Under normal operation, the 7X (CMP RESYNC) COUNTER continuously counts
the notches in the crankshaft as it rotates, and resets to zero each
time the CMP sensor detects the #4 cylinder firing. Therefore, the 7X
(CMP RESYNC) COUNTER should continuously count from 0 to 14 with each
two crankshaft revolutions. If the cam signal is missing, the 7X COUNTER
will count to 255 and stay fixed and P0340 will set. If the cam signal
is present too often, the counter will not reach 14 and a P0341 will
set.

If the ignition secondary (coil, pair of spark plugs wires) has
incorrect resistance, open or corrosion in the circuit that influences
firing voltage, the EI module can incorrectly interpret these voltages
and cause codes P0340 and/or P0341 to set.
Procedures

1. Remove corrosion from EI module coil tower terminals using a 3M
Scotch-Brite fiber pad or equivalent. Do not use any solvents or
cleaners to aid in corrosion removal. Do not contact or scratch the
plastic sealing surfaces below the terminal. If the coil tower terminals
are damaged by corrosion or pitting, replace coil.
2. Replace corroded spark plug wire(s) with new service spark plug
wires. Add a liberal amount of dielectric grease to the coil tower
terminals before installing new spark plug wires.
3. Test to endure a positive "click" noise is heard when seating the
spark plug wire on the terminal. If a positive seating and "click" noise
is not obtained after cleaning.

Parts Requirement

DOHC (LL0) Engines

21024465
Wire Asm - Splg (Cylinders 1 & 4)

21024466
Wire Asm - Splg (Cylinder 2)

21024467
Wire Asm - Splg (Cylinder 3)

SOHC (L24) Engines

21024472
Wire Asm - Splg (Cylinders 1 & 4)

21024473
Wire Asm - Splg (Cylinder 2)

21024474
Wire Asm - Splg (Cylinder 3)

All Engines

21024473
Module Asm - Elec Ign Cont

16167763
Coil Asm - Ign

Important
On 1996 vehicles, if spark plugs are replaced, and vehicle was equipped
with 0.060 in gap plugs, all four spark plugs and "Vehicle Emissions
Control Information Label" must be replaced. Refer to Technical
Information Bulletin 96-T-25, "Engine Cranks but will not Start, or
Engine Stalls Immediately After Start Followed by Extended Cranking,
and/or Ignition Misfire Resulting in DTCs P0300, P0301, P0302, P0303,
P0304."
Claim Information

To receive credit for this repair during the warranty coverage period,
submit a claim through the Saturn Dealer System for one of the following
depending on repair performed:

Case Type
Description
Labor Operation Code
Time
VW
Wires, Spark Plug - Replace one or two
J4206
0.3 hrs
Add:
A. To replace all spark plug wires
0.1 hrs
VW
Module, Electronic Ignition (DIS) - Replace
J4343
0.6 hrs
Add:
A. To replace all spark plug wires
0.1 hrs
VW
Coil, Electronic Ignition Module - Replace
J4345
--
Add:
A. To replace each additional coil
0.2 hrs
B. To replace all spark plug wires
0.1 hrs

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's one more thing you can print out for them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMPRESSION SENSE IGNITION

Both the SOHC and DOHC engines utilize Compression Sense Ignition,
which eliminates the need for a camshaft position sensor. The EI module
has sensing circuitry that detects when cylinder #4 has fired on its
compression stroke and relays this information to the PCM. The PCM can
then correctly synchronize the fuel injectors for sequential fuel
injection.

The EI module uses capacitive pickup plates located under the 1/4
coil to determine when cylinder #4 has fired on compression. These
plates are used to differentiate the polarity and voltage amplitude
difference between the 1/4 secondary ignition circuits. Since each coil
tower is of opposite polarity and the waste spark (2-4 kV) generally
fires before the compression spark (10-25 kV), the module can determine
cylinder #4 compression. When the EI module detects a positive to
negative polarity sequence and a high negative voltage spike, it will
pull the PCM 5-volt cam signal circuit to ground. The PCM knows that
cylinder #4 had just fired on its compression stroke when this
transition occurs.

The EI module, however, cannot always detect when cylinder #4 has fired
on compression. These occurrences include the following:

* During deceleration
* Very low engine load conditions when engine is running
* If a secondary ignition problem occurs on cylinder #1 or #4

Too few cam pulses (cam signal circuit not being pulled to ground) are a
result of decreased cylinder #4 secondary resistance or increased
cylinder #1 secondary resistance. Too many cam pulses, cam signal
circuit being pulled to ground too often, are a result of decreased
cylinder #1 secondary resistance or increased cylinder #4 secondary
resistance.

 

thanks bla ba im gonna try again its kind a hard to go back again to saturn
dealership they wanna sell me a car can anybody do this job? i mean can i
buy a spark plugs then buy wires? let auto zone check or advanced auto
check the wires make sure its 15ohms or i need to go to dealership to get it
tested

 

one more thing bla bla do you have by chance have a image of the saturn
ingine were the coil are and what they look like. if not its ok you already
help me me enough .. thanks to you

 

whats knock sensor